What do you know about the fascinating world of marketing ecology?

In this episode, we’re excited to welcome Erin Sowell, a 2023 Greenbook Future List honoree, as she delves into the captivating world of marketing ecology and its profound implications for the realm of insights. Erin explores the essential qualities of leadership that foster a flourishing environment, emphasizing curiosity, bravery, empathy, inclusivity, and inspiration. Throughout our conversation, Erin offers valuable perspectives on distinguishing between disruption and disturbance within the marketing landscape. We also explore the importance of uncovering your own niche and nurturing symbiotic relationships, strategies that not only set you up for success but also contribute to the success of those around you.

You can reach out to Erin on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Erin for being our guest. Thanks also to our producer, Natalie Pusch; our editor, James Carlisle; and this episode’s sponsor, SurveyMonkey.

Transcripts

Karen: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the GreenBook Podcast. I am hosting today, it’s Karen Lynch. And I’m excited today to talk to you another one of the GreenBook Future List honorees. Now, if this is the first time you’re tuning in to this podcast and you don’t know about the GreenBook Future List, a little bit of a, kind of, intro to it: the GreenBook Future List recognizes each year leadership, professional growth, personal integrity, passion, contributions to the industry, just overall excellence in terms of insights professionals that are standing out in our field. They really are our future.

And each year, we honor twenty. And this episode features one of them, a woman named Erin Sowell. Erin, I’m going to let you introduce yourself in just a minute, but ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to Erin Sowell. She’s currently the founder and CEO of Thoughtful Research. She has a really neat background, which I’ll dig into momentarily but, Erin, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you here.

Erin: Hi, everybody.

Karen: Tell us a little bit more about what you’re doing at Thoughtful Research and, kind of, how you got there?

Erin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, I am an organizational ecologist. So, I’m going to talk a little bit more about ecology later on, but I look at the market like it’s an ecosystem, or I look at your organization like it’s an ecosystem. And I help you understand your ecosystem through marketing research, through primary research, through analyzing data, learning about the world, and then help you optimize your strategy so you can secure your success in your role, for your brand, for your organization.

So, I have lots of different ways of doing that. The primary way is using ecology. So, we hear ecology, we tend to think of natural ecology; we think of nature and plants and animals. But ecology is much more than that. It’s the science of competition and interaction and evolution, and that applies to the natural world, but it also applies to the business world and the market. So, my philosophy is rooted in the science of ecology and I use methods inspired by ecology to help my clients succeed.

Karen: Well, I love it so much. I’m really excited to dig into that. There’s so much about what you’re saying that resonates with me, but first, I also want to just take a step back and say, congratulations [laugh], on becoming an honoree this year. You know, there was some serious competition, so you really did rise to the top. I think we had ”I think the final number was 267 nominations, whittled down to, you know, 75 finalists. So, getting to a place where you’re really in the top twenty, I think that’s quite an accomplishment at this stage of your career in particular. So, just want to say, like, kudos to you. It’s just really fantastic to see you on this list.

Erin: Thank you. Thank you. And it’s an honor and I’m so appreciative and grateful to be included.

Karen: So, talk to me a little bit about how you got to this place, right? A little bit of not only how you got to this place of having an area of expertise, which I do think you carved a niche for yourself, and here you are, and by doing that, you put a lot of things into practice that are helping to elevate you. So, how did you get there? How did you get to a place where you have thought leadership and you’re a standout in the field?

Erin: It’s been an interesting journey. So, I do not have a traditional business background. I studied natural ecology; that was my undergraduate. I studied Earth and Environmental Science and was learning all about, you know, how natural ecosystems work, how evolution works, competition. And I loved those studies.

And then I ended up finding my way into research through some early product development experiences, and I found that I really loved the understanding what the need is and helping companies meet those needs. I didn’t even know at the beginning of all of this that there was, like, a whole industry that specialized in helping businesses learn and create value or increase their value. I didn’t even know that there was a whole industry. But then I stumbled across the Masters of Marketing Research program at the University of Georgia. And I went there and the rest is history. I love [laugh], I love the insights industry. It’s the best, best place. So.

Karen: Well, we’ll agree on that. I love it, too, having, you know, had quite a few years in this field myself. I think it’s a very special community. And we could probably talk a lot about the [laugh] the ecosystem that we are as an industry; maybe we’ll get there towards the end of this. But thinking about your journey then here to where you are right now, and I think there’s a lot of lessons for undergrads, those just coming out of school, people who are exploring this field, in your ability to kind of make and see the connection to the field you are studying to the world we operate in.

You know, for example, a lot of people come from psychology, for example, and they study psychology and then they want to, you know, kind of think about how do I apply psychology in the business space? Or maybe they’re cultural anthropologists or sociologists, you know, we get a lot of people that then are like, oh, I want to study marketing or study advertising and they end up in marketing research also. So, what is some advice that you might have for somebody who’s kind of fresh into the workplace, trying to figure it out? And they happen upon us? You know, sort of as you did? What advice might you have for somebody just starting out a career in this industry?

Erin: Yeah, yeah. I think, like, keep keeping an open mind. Learning how to learn. You don’t have to know every single thing. If you know how to learn, then you can figure it out. So, it’s about learning. It’s about putting yourself out there, being okay existing outside your comfort zone. If you can get comfortable feeling uncomfortable, then that’s a good thing, I think.

You know, of course, everything in moderation. Do what’s right for you, but putting yourself out there, looking for connections that might not necessarily be the most obvious. So, it’s about learning, it’s about figuring it out, knowing that you can figure it out, and being confident in that.

Karen: That’s great advice. And I love the idea of making connections. I have always been somebody who thrives on a good metaphor. And that’s one of the things again, if we go back to your field, I love the idea of looking at the field of ecology and applying it to organizations and then applying it to different practices within organizations. I actually think it’s really genius. So, let’s dig into that, right, which is something that differentiates you and that I think people could really learn from in our field. So, the essence of marketing ecology specifically, how does it differ from traditional market research approaches?

Erin: It’s more similar than you think. So, marketing ecology, I see it as ”it’s under the umbrella of organizational ecology. So like marketing is how your business is interacting with the world around it. It’s your brand, it’s the products that you’re creating, it’s the way that you interact with the world if you’re an organization. You know, that’s what our job is. Our job is to help businesses interact and to navigate the market, navigate the marketing ecosystem.

That’s what we’ve always been doing and that’s what ecology is about, too. So, it’s not that marketing ecology and marketing research are different. It’s that ecology is the science that underpins what we do. And given that, we have this opportunity to tap into ecological science to increase our value and help the organizations that we work with become more competitive.

Karen: So, let’s talk about, when you say we can tap into ecological science, you know, in my head, I’m thinking to myself, is this behavioral science? You know, like, what’s ”is this ”like, what is science and what are some of the principles of ecology that we can apply? Like, what are we talking about on a very basic level?

Erin: Yes, yes. So, the definition of ecology. So, it studies the transactions, connections, and dynamics between market participants ”so that could be a brand, a consumer, a product in the market ”so market participants and their marketing environment, so the places that they exist in and the places that they are used in. So, that’s the definition. I think the main difference between where we’re coming from and where we’re going, from an ecology standpoint, is where there’s more of a push to look at yourself from an ecosystem perspective.

So like, imagining yourself in an environment. Like, I am in an environment. What can I do to set myself up for success? Versus I think the previous, sort of, philosophy is more around answering questions and meeting business objectives and needs. Which is great, but I think ecology takes this extra step and it’s like, okay, your business, you’re in an environment. What can you do to navigate that in the best way possible and influence the world around you, adapt your brand, your product to better fit in the space?

So, there are a lot of words that we use, that marketing researchers use and we don’t even think about them being ecological terms or ecology. So like competition, that’s one of the critical concepts in ecology. Adaptation, you know, you’re changing yourself. So, think about the marketing mix. You could change your place, you could adapt your place, you could adapt your form, the way that your brand is presenting itself to the world, you could change your price. So, you can adapt to all of all the different ”there’s all sorts of different strategies for adapting to the world around you.

Selection is another concept in ecology. So think, like, natural selection. What wins in the market, that’s natural selection, right? So, there’s just a bunch of consumers and they’re doing what’s natural to them, and what they buy continues on and what they don’t buy goes extinct. So.

Disruption, that’s another one. There are types of brands, we’re calling them Keystone brands, they are known for being the disruptors and they direct the future of their markets through disruption, disturbance. All of Covid, that was a massive, massive disturbance to the market. Also, niche. Niches are marketers in the same niche that’s an ecological term. In ecology, niche means your place in the market, the space that you take up in the ecosystem, where sometimes marketers mean, like, specialized products. So, niche. Strategy. Strategies are an ecological term, too.

Karen: It’s so interesting, as you’re saying, this, I’m thinking of sys ”again, right, up my alley, it’s super cool. And one of the exercises I used to like to do, I was a creative facilitator and I did a lot of types of ideation sessions or bring in different creative problem-solving sessions and things like that. Even naming sessions, like, that was a world that I lived in before I joined GreenBook. And we took excursions to other worlds a lot, you know, where we’d say, Let’s look for examples of a certain attribute or feature from another world and see if there’s any stimuli you can create to further our creative thinking. So, maybe we would take a, you know, excursion into, you know, the world of history, and what can we learn from, you know, historical events that we might apply to a problem, for example?

Or what can we learn from the world of fashion that we could look for other ways to describe our products? Whatever it might be. So, I love the excursion into another world, first of all. It’s bringing me a lot of creative energy just thinking about it. You know, I heard something interesting this morning about competition that I think comes from the world of ecology, which is what you’re talking about.

You and I shared before we logged in that, you know, you are kind of an avid gardener and love being in the outdoors tending to your gardens, which makes sense now that I know about your background, right [laugh] and also in what you studied in school. I am a big hummingbird fan, so I spend a lot of time outside trying to do what’s best for my hummingbird. And I was listening to somebody speak this morning about how to help the hummingbirds overcome their strong competitive drive. They are really competitive with each other, they dive-bomb each other to get them away from the feeder and they’re super” they are these, you know, beautiful creatures that are seemingly competitive with one another and aggressive almost because they’re trying to compete for the food source. Anyway, this one woman then went to an analogy of horses and how you would put blinders on horses so they can not worry about what’s around them so much and get out of that fight or flight response and just keep going forward without kind of any fear or that sense of warning, warning, warning that comes when you don’t have blinders on.

And I was thinking about the idea of blinders and how to apply the idea of what do we do when we have blinders on in the marketing research space and what happens when we take our blinders off. Which is better? And I was having this own little debate inside my head. Is it better to keep the blinders on? Is it better to take the blinders off?

So anyway, my little sidebar there is just because I love the idea that comes from taking a trip into another world and applying it to insights. So, how does that play out with the people that you’re working with? Are other people able to take these kinds of excursions with you and learn or do they trip up on the fact that it’s a little bit of a mental shift?

Erin: There are definitely people who resonate with it and they get it, and I can use examples from ecology and they, you know, “Oh, I spot that in the market.”  Like, there’s the parallel is obvious. That said, there are definitely some people who hear it and they’re, like, little skeptical, like, you know. I mean, and it makes sense, like, from a philosophical perspective, too. Like, we tend to think of ourselves was very separate from nature, right?

Like, why would ”how would business be so similar to nature, right? But it’s the same. Competition is the same in nature and in business. Why would it be different? Evolution is the same in nature or business. It might be different.

So, that’s my point of view. Like, why not, like, take these two worlds and, you know, see what we can learn from the natural world and apply it to marketing? Why not do that? You know, ecologists, they’ve been studying competition for, I don’t know, maybe, like, a hundred years longer than the marketers. So, there’s a lot to learn from them, I think.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. There’s something about when you were talking about disruption and then you also linked it to disturbance, that also stayed with me. And I was thinking, I’d love to hear from you on the difference between a disruption and a disturbance because I bet there’s something super insightful there with that differentiation. Can you share?

Erin: Yes. Yes, I would love to talk about that. I hear disruption and disturbance being, like, thrown around all the time, like, in marketing. Like, sometimes people say, like, disruption when they mean disturbance and vice versa. So disruption, it comes from the players within the environment. So, think ”let’s talk about soda. So, we’re in the soda market. Who has been disrupting the soda market recently? It’s some of these, like, wellness types of sodas. So, that disruption is coming from that world, the soda industry. But a disturbance would come from outside of the soda industry. So, it’s like external versus internal. Disruption is internal; disturbance is coming from the external.

Karen: And often ”now correct me if I’m wrong, if I’m tracking with you. So, for instance, we” at our events, at IIEX events, we often like to feature disruptive innovators, right? So, I would see Liquid Death, for example, they came in, they absolutely disrupted the, you know, bottled water category because they were like, “By the way, we’re going to now put it on these irreverent cans and make it look like an energy drink, even though it’s just water. And we’re going to make that, you know, super edgy-looking and all that.” So, what’s an example then of a disturbance in a category like that, whether it’s water or soft drinks? What then is a disturbance that we can just get our minds around how we might have to be prepared for that as marketers?

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. So disturbance, maybe it has to do with the supply chain. You know, with Covid, we had a lot of supply chain issues, so that would be considered a disturbance. So, it’s coming outside of the industry and it’s impacting that industry. You know, maybe there’s, you know, like, an economic crisis. It disturbs the people who are buying your product, so then that would disturb your industry.

Karen: Yeah, I love that. And granted, I’m also, you know, I’m a words person, so like, I could talk about the difference between two similar words, you know, for a long, long time. We don’t have that kind of time today. But I love that and I think it’s really interesting. So, if you are a marketer, and you’re thinking about, you know, planning for both, or you know, how you’re going to be able to kind of ride the disturbances and maybe be disruptive yourself”

Erin: Yeah. Yeah.

Karen: ”and, like, just play with those two things. There’s your call to action, your competitive” or your challenge out there in the industry is, you know, sort out those two words. All right, so let’s talk about whether there’s any examples that you can share, any sort of case studies that you’ve worked on, where this concept of ecological marketing or even insights into this using this lens have come to fruition. Anything you can share that’s not too proprietary?

Erin: Yeah, yeah. So, I’ve been doing some work on organizational health, organizational, like, leadership thinking in that space lately, so I think that’s a really great example of how ecology can be very beneficial business. So, if you’re the, like, leader of your organization, you should be thinking of yourself as an ecologist. You have this environment, you have this ecosystem, and what can you be doing to set that ecosystem up to thrive, sort of like tending to your system? And it goes back to what you were saying with the hummingbirds.

You are trying to figure out, like, how do I help my hummingbirds outcompete the other birds and so I can get to see them? And you know, that’s what my goal is. You can do the same sort of thing from a leadership perspective. So like, how can I set my team up to, you know, be the most collaborative? Maybe that has to do with the way that you’re distributing resources, or, you know, a leader who’s creating a product, you know, thinking about” or helping your organization think about their place in a broader ecosystem? So, it’s like, you’re in a small ecosystem and a broad ecosystem. There are there lots of different examples.

Karen: I do ”I love that. First of all, I thank you for throwing back and honoring my little hummingbird ecosystem that I create because it is really, as I was saying, this morning, it is just really funny. Like, all of a sudden, I woke up one day, and I was like, “And now I love hummingbirds.” And I don’t know what happened, but it’s like a big deal in my life. It’s really funny. I wasn’t always this way. And within the last, I would say few years prior to Covid, I’ve been taking care of hummingbirds. But it seems to be very important since Covid, probably because I focused a lot of energy on my own little ecosystem in my environment here, right? So yeah, I love this.

But you also talk about leadership and that segues into another thing I wanted to talk to you about. We recently, and again, to those listening who don’t know, we publish an article where we introduce our Future List honorees in a little more holistic way. We don’t get to have everybody on our podcast, but we do like to feature everybody online in our digital publication. And one of the things that you shared with us were qualities of a leader that you think are really key that the most influential and impactful leaders. So, here’s the five qualities you attributed to them: that they’re curious, that they’re brave, that they’re empathic, that they’re inclusive, and that they’re inspiring.

When I read that, I was like, “Yes. I was” you know, I had this visceral reaction because I’m like, I agree. And I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about that, like, you know, what has shaped your view on leadership and which of those would you like to expand on? Because I think a lot of people will look to you as a leader now that you’re one of our honorees. They look to you, you are leading the way, and in many ways, it’s great to learn from you about the qualities that you think would lead the way for you. Talk to me a little bit about those.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. So, my five, so curious, brave, empathetic, inclusive, and inspiring. I think that these adjectives or these qualities, you know, it’s, it comes from my understanding of ecology. Everything, you know, everything is inspired by that. So, it’s like, the qualities that I look for in a leader, that I value in a leader are the qualities that create thriving environments, thriving ecosystems.

So, I think in order to be that, sort of like, ecologist type of leader, you have to be curious, you have to go out and, you know, explore your environment, explore the world around you, and talk to the people that you’re working with and figure out what they value and what is beneficial to them so you can search for mutual benefit. And, you know, what do they define as success? You know, you have to be curious to learn that information.

Being brave, I think that’s about being bold and confident, it’s dealing with uncertainty. You never know what’s going to happen, especially in entrepreneurship, and it’s just kind of like charting your own path, you know? You just got to be brave, you just got to go out there.

Empathetic, it’s you know, tuning into the emotional world, it’s understanding how people were feeling. I mean, that’s the experiential side of leadership. I think that it’s important that people have a positive experience. So, being empathetic is very important for that, providing support and encouragement, listening to people, and then working with them to solve problems or help them pursue an opportunity.

Inclusive, again, it’s creating a great environment, creating a dynamic that is enjoyable. You know, everyone wants to be seen, heard, valued, and you have to be inclusive for that. And then inspiring, you know, we all want to, like, take action, but I think that sometimes we need, like, a little push. So, I think that’s the leader’s job is to be inspiring, to find that opportunity for the person that you’re working with, or for yourself, and going out and seizing the opportunity, and you know, uplifting people and helping people bring out the best in them, and bringing out the best of your team, your clients, your partners. And I think you need, like, all of those adjectives working together to do that.

So, that’s my thought on leadership. And also, it’s like helping people find their space. Like, that goes back to the niche. Some people call it “neeche I call it niche ”like, we’re all looking for our space in the world and in the environment and ecosystem. And as a leader, you get to help someone find their space. They get to help them find their niche, help them figure out the best function for them, or the best position for them, or help them get the resources they need, things like that.

Karen: Yeah, so that they can thrive in the environment that you have, whether you established it or whether you inherited it, what can you do to help people thrive and grow? And”

Erin: Yeah, yeah. And then if they’re ”you know, if you’re, like, kind of like passing it on, so it’s like, if you know, the recipe for creating a thriving environment, then you can teach others and then they can go and create their own thriving environment, and it’s good for the world. So.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I could stay with this ”again, I could stay with this metaphor that you are living forever because, you know, I think, yes, if you’ve created something, you also then have to make sure there’s a plan for if you’re not there, right, for who will take care of it and nurture it and help it continue to thrive and grow in your absence. Or, you know, if there’s something new being introduced, how do you make sure that doesn’t disrupt what’s already in place, you know, and that it can start to be holistically integrated in? Like, there’s so much, if you think about this space for leadership, so I’m so glad you shared all of that. I really, for leaders and managers who are listening, like, lean into this. It’s really, really fascinating. Thank you for sharing all that.

Erin: And at the end of the day, it makes this is the science of competition, right? That’s what business is about, that’s what leadership is about, and if you know, the science of competition, then you probably have a competitive advantage.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Sure. And you know, when you think about it, we often talk in this field about competition being you know, it being in the world of products and services, right, where they compete with each other, but it counts for employers as well, right? There’s competition amongst different companies in the industry, right, about, you know, what looks like an appealing workspace. And why would somebody looking for a position want to work at one company versus another, you know? And I think that it’s about a lot more these days than just the job description. It’s a very ”it’s the ecosystem you’re considering working in and staying in. So, how has it been set up? So, I love this, I love this conversation.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. And then, like, as an employee, like, you’re navigating the marketing environment through who you work for, and what those ecosystems are like. So, of course, you would want to find that ecosystem that you’re going to thrive in, that you’re going to learn in, that is beneficial to you, that is going to set you up for success.

Karen: Right, right. So, and not to throw out these words even more, but there’s also a lot of insights professionals that are looking. I’m on the board of the Insights Career Network, and I’m paying close attention to people in our space that are unemployed at the moment, who have been, I guess they’ve been disturbed by layoffs or something similar, right? Is that accurate? It’s their lives have been disturbed by something that’s happened outside of themselves and now they have to find a new space.

These would be really interesting concepts to talk to a new employer about, to try to think about, you know, how do you adapt? How are you managing change? How are you evolving in the current landscape that is the insights industry? You know, I just think that there could be some really good interview questions”

Erin: Yeah, yeah. Definitely.

Karen: In this space to borrow from as well.

Erin: It makes you like an active participant, too. It’s like, less like going with the flow and more like I’m influencing and I’m charting my way forward, that kind of thing.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s super cool thinking, Erin. I really appreciate it. It has there been anybody ”speaking of leaders” that have been particularly instrumental in your career development or the development in this field? Any mentors or people that you look to for advice or inspiration?

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I think that Simon Chadwick is awesome, he’s a role model, and I look to him for advice and encouragement. So, I think Simon is awesome. But there’s also lots of other folk, yes.

Karen: Yeah. I am honored to also know Simon. He was on the board of one of my previous employers, and obviously, we continue to kind of chat now that I’m in my new role, too. He’s a special human being in the industry. So”

Erin: Yeah, yeah. He’s how I got on this path. I gave this presentation, it was like, it was called “Marketing and Innovation Insights from Ecology and Evolutionary Biology,” and I gave it at Hawkeye Lunch & Learn. And at the end, Simon was like, “You have to follow up. You have to continue this. So, that’s”

Karen: Nice.

Erin: Yeah. That’s how.

Karen: Nice. I love how a moment, right, a moment could then be all you need, a single moment where one person says this and you, you know, either intuitively trust that advice or just do the hard work to roll up your sleeves and say, “Okay, let’s see where this goes.” But thank you for sharing that because I think there’s probably a lot of moments like that for a lot of people that they might not recognize that this is a pinnacle moment, that this one person just gave me some feedback, and you can make a decision: do I go with this feedback or not? So, way to seize an opportunity there and say, “Yep, okay, I’m going to dig in.”

Erin: Yeah, yeah. I’m so glad I have. And, you know, this is back what I was saying at the beginning, when I got into marketing research, I had no idea that there was this link between ecology and marketing research and business. So, it was very exciting to have this realization and I’ve been exploring the subject for the last couple of years. So, it’s been a very fun and interesting journey.

Karen: Erin, what do you think is the quality that you possess that drove you to this point, then? And this will be kind of the last question I asked before we wrap. But what do you think is in you that got you to this place where you heard that advice or that you pursued this path or even that you were brave and kind of launched into this space? What do you think you possess?

Erin: Hmm. I think I’m curious, I’m assertive, I’m just, like, a nerd and I just like to talk about [laugh] stuff. Like, I just I just like to talk about all this, you know, the market and ecology, and I’m just like trying to find other nerds to go out and talk to you. So, that’s why. Like, that’s it. Like, I’m like, “Someone please talk about this with me.” [laugh].

Karen: [laugh]. You’re in good company, I can’t tell you how often, between myself and actually Natalie, who I work with as our producer here and then Lenny Murphy, who’s one of my coworkers, we are frequently calling ourselves nerds in different contexts. So, you know, I celebrate that and I celebrate that quality of yours, too. So, curiosity and, you know, just I think, a drive to learn and a drive to explore. So, kudos to you. What’s next for you, Erin? Kind of the last question here is, what’s next? What’s on the horizon for you?

Erin: I’m developing ecology tools. So, stay tuned.

Karen: All right, ecology tools. I like the way they sound. I’m so curious. Can you give us a little bit more tools to apply to what?

Erin: So, one methodology that I’m working on is called a “Relationship Strengthener.” So, it’s using ecology to help you figure out how to strengthen your relationships, create mutualistic relationships, relationships that are going to uplift you and set you up for success, but then also set the people that you’re around up for success.

Karen: It’s very cool. Very cool. I love a good assessment tool. Like, that’s really interesting. So, neat. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, we look forward to tracking that. Are there any questions, Erin, that you wished I had asked you that I hadn’t?

Erin: I think we covered everything. It was very fun. Thank you.

Karen: Good. I’m glad. Well, thank you, Erin, for joining us on the show today. Thank you to our listeners. It is a pleasure to show up and do this for you and to produce an episode week after week, knowing that you are listening and learning from us. I want to thank Jamie, our editor. Thank you for doing what you do. Natalie, our producer, appreciates you more than you know. And also thank you to SurveyMonkey for sponsoring this episode. We appreciate your faithfulness to us and you being a part of our ecological system here within the insights industry. How’s that Erin? Okay [laugh]? All right, everybody, have a great day.